Only slightly off topic but I sincerely wish Noctua was everywhere else in my life.
Like I’d love for them to make my HVAC system quieter.
Or table fans. Or car air conditioners.
Just about every fan in my life would be better if Noctua redesigned it.
They’d be like Dolby, but for making LESS noise.
By atonse 8 hours ago
We tolerate way too much noise in our daily lives, especially in dense cities. It’s a hidden tax on our health. Constant low-level noise has been linked to stress, sleep disruption, and even cardiovascular issues.
What bothers me is that we only regulate the loudest offenders (cars, motorcycles, construction), while the residual of everything else is just accepted as background. But that background adds up.
I wish we had stricter regulations not only for peak noise but also for the residual noise emitted by everyday objects. If reducing a few decibels here and there became a design goal across the board, the cumulative effect on quality of life in cities would be enormous.
By darkamaul 2 hours ago
My brother's car/camping fridge's compressor fan died. He replaced it with a Noctua. It's 1/3rd the volume and actually has slightly MORE airlow than the 20c 90mm fan that was ziptied to it from the factory.
By samplatt 6 hours ago
I bought some custom molded earplugs recently and I got 3 sets - two are completely sealed off and are very nice for when I wish for peace and quiet and don’t need to hear or speak.
I also use noise canceling mode on my airpods pro quite often.
The advantage is that it works even when I’m in an environment I can’t control, like an airport or waiting room.
His trick is to use a number of heat pipes (that transfer the heat
through vaporization), and a really really big heat sink (a 5kg copper plate).
By cloudbonsai 8 hours ago
Which goes to 76°C if you run the PC at full load for a couple of hours. I prefer a little noise than burning myself.
By darkwater 2 hours ago
76 is bad? My AMD Ryzen 9 7950X CPU frequently touches 90C whenever I play games or do heavy load stuff.
By askonomm 19 minutes ago
The whole black part of the case is for cooling if I understand correctly, so compared to your computer where the CPU can reach 90+ but the case stays at most warm, there the whole case reaches 70+ degrees.
By iLoveOncall 3 minutes ago
Thanks! I love Noctua but this is even more interesting than the article here.
By rkagerer 7 hours ago
That's a very cool hack, but there are tons of things on a system that aren't the CPU that would benefit from some moving air. A fan somewhere in the system that just moves a bit of air would, I think, really contribute to the overall longevity.
By jeffbee 11 hours ago
phones and iPads are similar and can get fairly hot, and they last a very long time if you replace the battery occasionally.
By bryanlarsen 7 hours ago
I don't think there are power supplies in an iphone that need to output 120W.
By jeffbee 4 hours ago
Would be wicked if it was one of those passive cooling systems that create movement of air just via temperature differentials
By whalesalad 11 hours ago
That wouldn't necessarily be silent though.
By wkat4242 10 hours ago
Passive convection flows would not be audible.
By PeterStuer 2 hours ago
It’s more likely to be quieter than a fan.
By ses1984 7 hours ago
Is Framework planning to ship this at some point? It seems pretty bad to need to print your own grill when Noctua collaborated on the project.
By al_borland 13 hours ago
This isn't a problem. The article says that this is only if you're looking to trade-off performance for less noise:
> In other words, we would only recommend upgrading to the NF-A12x25 G2 if you seek to lower noise levels as much as possible and if you are willing to sacrifice the maximum performance headroom in worst-case scenarios that the G1 HS-PWM fan provides.
By kurante 12 hours ago
That's for switching to the NF-A12x25 G2 fan (from the G1), which has a lower max RPM. The improved side panel appears to be a strict improvement.
By murderfs 12 hours ago
It doesn't say that:
> In addition to redesigning and testing the Noctua fan grill, we also evaluated various other scenarios. These included replacing the NF-A12x25 with its G2 variant and incorporating an additional 8cm fan for exhaust purposes.
By GrayShade 12 hours ago
"The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter. "
Appears that it doesn't pass safety guidelines, so this is one way to get around that.
By turtlebits 10 hours ago
No, they changed the grille to adhere to the standard. Very clearly stated in the very next sentence.
By denkmoon 9 hours ago
I loves me some Noctua. I suspect that the very quiet single 120mm is enough to keep air moving sufficiently through my 3090 GPU server chassis (though I also put a couple 80mm where 4U chassis airflow narrows in the rear, just to be safe).
I also put Noctuas in short-depth 1U servers and routers at home, usually 40mm.
By neilv 5 hours ago
Its really cool how, despite the core chip at the heart of the Framework Desktop not being that extensible, Framework went out of their way to make the FD as extensible and modular as possible, and are fostering a community of 3D printing stuff around it.
By logicprog 8 hours ago
Too bad the most recent fanless Nvidia card is the RTX 3050 6GB, wish there was a 4060 8GB released
Technically the NVIDIA RTX PRO 6000 Blackwell Server Edition is passive. It would rely on server case airflow though.
By PeterStuer 2 hours ago
Gotta give it the old Noctua and blow on that thang. Their fans are seriously awesome. I didn’t believe the hype at first until a Ryzen build was 5-15C cooler, and a lot quieter.
By rubiquity 6 hours ago
With the all-flat layout of the Ryzen APU and soldered memory I always though the framework desktop MB would be ideal for a single waterblock covering the entire MB.
By ginko 11 hours ago
Aside: any chance to load a real GPU like a 4070 or 5070 in this system, maybe even on the side?
By orliesaurus 5 hours ago
the motherboard does have a 4x pcie slot, but the default case wouldn't fit a second gpu
P.S. the igpu in this really is comparable to a 'real' gpu in performance, with the bonus of being able to allocate arbitrary amount of vram
By throawayonthe 2 hours ago
A GPU like that wouldn’t fit in the case and kinda defeats the purpose of getting the included mobo/CPU/iGPU combo... so why are you trying to make a discrete GPU work with that PC at all rather than just getting mini-ITX system with a standard desktop CPU?
By Marsymars 3 hours ago
Nocuta is a case study in how to make a high quality and luxury product to dominate a seemly small market. In a seemingly commoditized market where fans can be had for $3-$4 Nocuta still demands and get's $30-$40 dollars.
By nodesocket 7 hours ago
The case study results would be "make a product that's really hard to make and that people want"
By 0xbadcafebee 7 hours ago
Fair, but sort of my point. Make a extraordinary superior product in a very niche market and educated consumers will pay. Sure, there will always be uneducated or just "frugal" or cheap consumers but they are the fringe. Example are luxury brands such as Mercedes or Rolex. A hot take, but can't be denied as well Apple.
By nodesocket 5 hours ago
I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.
By hk1337 11 hours ago
I agree, but here's a quote from the CEO explaining (to some degree) the choice:
“So we did actually ask AMD about this the first time they told us about Strix Halo. It was literally our first question: ‘How do we get modular memory? We are Framework after all.’ And they didn’t say no actually, they did assign one of their technical architects to really really go deep on this—they ran simulations, they ran studies, and they just determined it’s not possible with Strix Halo to do LPCAMM. The signal integrity doesn’t work out because of how that memory’s fanning out over the 256-bit bus.”
I never understand this justification. If the tech does not allow, then don't do it if it's against your own core value. Instead, they join the quick cash grab AI-train.
By mrheosuper 6 hours ago
This is literally the best option to run Linux on M-series Mac class hardware.
Even though it's not upgradable (because of the laws of physics), it's still a positive development.
By theshrike79 2 hours ago
So don't buy it. Plenty of people aren't bothered and love it.
By tenuousemphasis 3 hours ago
If they made the memory upgradable it would defeat the purpose of the machine, since memory modules can’t hit the same speed as soldered memory.
If you’re buying this you’re probably maxing out the memory to start with. 128GB is borderline barely adequate for local LLMs.
By zargon 11 hours ago
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment.
Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
By Dylan16807 10 hours ago
The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
> The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus.
Right, you'd put in two of them.
Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there.
If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
By Dylan16807 9 hours ago
If they made the computer unupgradable it would defeat the purpose of their company.
By _aavaa_ 10 hours ago
LPCAMM2 can, its a shame Framework couldn't make it happen.
By wpm 10 hours ago
I don't understand how many parts people really upgrade these days.
For one, the memory is soldered on because it's integral to the GPU the same way it's integral to the Apple's M3, and can be used the same up to 96gb.
At the form factor, what else are you expecting to upgrade over it's lifetime?
This statement makes it sound like there's a lot to upgrade when it's mostly just memory people seem confused about.
By cyanydeez 11 hours ago
Most people probably never upgrade their machines at all. In my case I used the same PC from 2009 until about a month ago. Over its 16 year lifespan it saw 3 GPUs, the memory was doubled from 6GB to 12GB, a Wifi card was added (and then got flakey after about 7 years but was able to switch to Ethernet over coax with MoCa), and an SSD was added for hosting the OS and most apps (original HDD relegated to additional storage).
If you're planning for a 10-12 year lifespan I have this advice. CPUs have surprising longevity these days as most usages don't significantly tax them, go a little above mid range on core count and it should last. GPUs are a throwaway item, plan to replace them every 3-5 years to stay current. Storage can be something that's worth adding if you're planning for a long lifespan and depending on usage. Photos, video, and games use more storage than they used to but personal photos and videos largely live in the cloud now. RAM you might need to upgrade if you go midrange but might not if you aim higher than standard in the initial build. The buses and interfaces become the main limiting factors to longevity. RAM technology will advance, PCIe and USB will have new versions. There may be new standards you can't take advantage of, like I was still on SATA II when the world had since moved on to SATA III and then NVMe.
Sometimes it's more about repairability than upgradability. My stuff lasted but I've had HDDs, PSUs, and fans die in the past. It's nice to be able to replace a dead part and move on.
I will also say that I'm a little surprised that the enthusiast market is still mostly these big ATX mid tower cases. They feel massive and unnecessary today when 5.25" bays are obsolete and storage is not 3.5" HDDs but an m.2 chips that sit flush with the motherboard. The smaller form factors are still the exception. Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
By cherrycherry98 7 hours ago
> Is it all to support the biggest and baddest high end GPUs that cost more than the rest of the system?
I think it's more to have a big window with lots of RGB LEDs to show off on the internet.
Newer SFF cases from Ncase/Formd/Louqe are designed with perforations or mesh on every exterior surface to maximize air flow. They can support an air-cooled 5090 and an AIO or massive tower cooler for the CPU. Put a 1000W SFX PSU in there and I don't know if you'd really be wanting for anything spec-wise.
By badlucklottery 5 hours ago
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
By stevage 10 hours ago
It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc.
I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds.
So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
By cyanydeez 10 hours ago
Frameworks laptops are upgradeable, that's their whole thing.
By OJFord 8 hours ago
> It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts.
That makes it more surprising. It's not that desktops went off in a different direction. Desktops are moving closer to their area of expertise and yet they are unable to apply that expertise.
By Dylan16807 8 hours ago
But their own laptops happen to have upgrade-able memory. Truly, it is just unjustifiable.
By AshamedCaptain 8 hours ago
There is a part salvage factor to consider. If one can pull the drive, they can attempt to send it out for data recovery or wipe it for resale. If they can also pull the RAM, they can recover more costs.
By 1970-01-01 10 hours ago
You lack the knowledge of the AI Max chip. You can’t have slots. It requires soldered memory because it’s unified.
By reactordev 10 hours ago
Please don't turn this site into Slashdot or Reddit. You can make your point without being rude.
By abrookewood 8 hours ago
Rude wasn’t my intent, it’s just a weird chip.
By reactordev 8 hours ago
It requires soldered memory because no one makes LPCAMM2 modules for LPDDR5x
Note that it’s two generations old, and the newer ones have soldered ram.
By hedora 8 hours ago
Every AMD and Intel APU has had unified memory for many generations, as have mobile devices. It's sad how many people Apple's marketing has misled about something that's been standard in the industry for ages.
By ben-schaaf 8 hours ago
> It must be noted that customer safety and EMC requirements for the mini PC, a standalone electrical item, differ from those for hardware components (such as the PSU) designed to be inside a PC case. The safety standard suggests that ventilation openings on case side panels need to be less than 5mm in diameter.
...but it's a plastic panel? I don't understand how this helps with EMC.
By wren6991 12 hours ago
It's a safety standard, so the requirement is "toddlers can't get their fingers stuck in the fan".
By InitialLastName 11 hours ago
If I were that concerned about noise from my computers, I would leverage the inverse square law and put them in another room and use long video and input cables.
By sneak 3 hours ago
If you use HDR 4k or even 5k screens and are looking for a decent framerate, the maximum cable length is quite short (on the order of 3m for an UHBR10 DP40).
There exist solutions for that with active cables or optical cables, but that quickly gets expensive and complicated.
By Koffiepoeder 28 minutes ago
So just use Noctua fans? That'd do it.
By therein 13 hours ago
It's more than just the Noctua fan. The fan grille is a contributing factor to noise [0]. The new design features in the article could reduce the noise of any 120mm fan.
Well the fan in the Framework desktop is some kind of purpose built high performance Noctua fan that is significantly louder than usual. So they are suggesting to use the new grill with the fan that comes with it so you don't encounter throttling.
By khaki54 13 hours ago
Its been a while since I looked into "just use Noctua" for $another_use_case, but ...
Isn't the problem with Noctua (and similar "silent" fans) that they don't offer the same airflow throughput as their noise making bretheren ?
So sometimes its not as easy as "just use Noctua" ?
By traceroute66 13 hours ago
Noctua makes 2000rpm and 3000rpm max variants of the NF-F12. Otherwise, through (over)engineered geometry and materials, their fans usually do push the most air volume and pressure at a given volume level, with a more pleasant sound profile. But you pay for it.
By hnuser123456 13 hours ago
Worth noting that you are also paying for the service.
I have RMA'd many fans through them and the experience is quick and painless every time.
By tempest_ 10 hours ago
I think noctua fans are just better fans, noisewise.
They have better airflow design and sound dampening/isolating screw mounts.
I think the idea about reduced airflow might be backwards - most systems use PWM to spin the fans based on CPU or system temperature. This means the systems get the airflow they need.
Also, they make larger heatsinks + fans for certain systems that allow the same airflow using a larger, slower spinning fan. which means less sound.
that said, there are some noctua fans that can spin faster than others.
By m463 10 hours ago
Noctua fans are quieter than most for a given airflow level.
They have a range of fan speeds going up to very high speeds.
Many people doing modifications will substitute a lower airflow fan for even more noise reduction, which might be why you’re thinking they flow less. That’s a function of fan choice, though.
Noctua fans perform very well on a noise-adjusted basis.
By Aurornis 12 hours ago
Their big fans do push enough air, the small ones are questionable
If you're looking for 40mm or 80mm you're better off with sunon maglev or similar
By forsakenharmony 9 hours ago
For some applications such as cooling of an extruder for a 3D printer Noctua fans indeed don't offer sufficient airflow.
But I don't think that's an issue for computer cooling unless you're talking about extreme circumstances.
By lawn 12 hours ago
There is no way the EMC situation is maintained with that modification.
By jeffbee 12 hours ago
Framework lets you buy bare mainboards, if you can't run those on your table without the radio police swatting your house then they wouldn't be allowed to sell them anyway.
By moffkalast 11 hours ago
There’s more to it than that. It’s better for the longevity of the components to be shielded, and the noise it gives iff could bother you in your home, in terms of wifi, Bluetooth, etc interference. I practice electric guitar at home and I don’t want an unshielded computer near me when I’m doing that.
By atonse 8 hours ago
By darkamaul 2 hours ago
By samplatt 6 hours ago
By sneak 3 hours ago
By bryanlarsen 13 hours ago
By cloudbonsai 8 hours ago
By darkwater 2 hours ago
By askonomm 19 minutes ago
By iLoveOncall 3 minutes ago
By rkagerer 7 hours ago
By jeffbee 11 hours ago
By bryanlarsen 7 hours ago
By jeffbee 4 hours ago
By whalesalad 11 hours ago
By wkat4242 10 hours ago
By PeterStuer 2 hours ago
By ses1984 7 hours ago
By al_borland 13 hours ago
By kurante 12 hours ago
By murderfs 12 hours ago
By GrayShade 12 hours ago
By turtlebits 10 hours ago
By denkmoon 9 hours ago
By neilv 5 hours ago
By logicprog 8 hours ago
By haunter 8 hours ago
By PeterStuer 2 hours ago
By rubiquity 6 hours ago
By ginko 11 hours ago
By orliesaurus 5 hours ago
By throawayonthe 2 hours ago
By Marsymars 3 hours ago
By nodesocket 7 hours ago
By 0xbadcafebee 7 hours ago
By nodesocket 5 hours ago
By hk1337 11 hours ago
By daemonologist 8 hours ago
By mrheosuper 6 hours ago
By theshrike79 2 hours ago
By tenuousemphasis 3 hours ago
By zargon 11 hours ago
By Dylan16807 10 hours ago
By ThatPlayer 9 hours ago
By Dylan16807 9 hours ago
By _aavaa_ 10 hours ago
By wpm 10 hours ago
By cyanydeez 11 hours ago
By cherrycherry98 7 hours ago
By badlucklottery 5 hours ago
By stevage 10 hours ago
By cyanydeez 10 hours ago
By OJFord 8 hours ago
By Dylan16807 8 hours ago
By AshamedCaptain 8 hours ago
By 1970-01-01 10 hours ago
By reactordev 10 hours ago
By abrookewood 8 hours ago
By reactordev 8 hours ago
By wpm 10 hours ago
By Dylan16807 10 hours ago
By Dylan16807 10 hours ago
By hedora 8 hours ago
By ben-schaaf 8 hours ago
By wren6991 12 hours ago
By InitialLastName 11 hours ago
By sneak 3 hours ago
By Koffiepoeder 28 minutes ago
By therein 13 hours ago
By evanjrowley 13 hours ago
By khaki54 13 hours ago
By traceroute66 13 hours ago
By hnuser123456 13 hours ago
By tempest_ 10 hours ago
By m463 10 hours ago
By Aurornis 12 hours ago
By forsakenharmony 9 hours ago
By lawn 12 hours ago
By jeffbee 12 hours ago
By moffkalast 11 hours ago
By ses1984 7 hours ago