It's the same reason you don't want Chinese equipment in your telecommunications infrastructure. You can't trust what the Chinese government will do to it or with it.
By breve 9 hours ago
> It's the same reason you don't want Chinese equipment in your telecommunications infrastructure.
Hopefully now "Europe" will think before fire selling all of its hardware manufacturing companies to foreign firms.
By sschueller 3 hours ago
Yeah, for those foreign firms to manufacture goods from US companies in order to fill Walmarts and number go up.
By PedroBatista 2 hours ago
It's incredible how quickly such obvious hostility as plans to incite what amounts to secession in a putatively friendly, allied sovereign entity has become normalized and ho-hum.
By Sharlin an hour ago
> It's the same reason you don't want Chinese equipment in your telecommunications infrastructure. You can't trust what the Chinese government will do to it or with it.
Doesn't Europe actually have a lot of Chinese equipment in their telecom infrastructure? Is this an effort just to try not to make that mistake again?
By petcat 6 hours ago
The UK certainly ripped out a lot of Huawei equipment. Which is why our cellular coverage is a bit shitty these days
By Angostura 3 hours ago
As an American, I would much prefer spotty cellar coverage to a Salt Typhoon attack. You lot got off easy!
By bigyabai 27 minutes ago
No, not a lot as the EU has two very competitive providers in Ericsson and Nokia
By ulfw 5 hours ago
They're both very expensive and the carriers primarily care about cost and features. And huawei will take a dozen devs, give them a one way ticket and put them in a hotel room near a customer to grind our whatever feature needed to seal the deal.
I remember years ago talking to some EU telecom VP who was on the engineering side that said "id buy from North Korea if the price was right".
We live in new times anyways - most of the carriers have outsourced a lot of the tech stuff to the vendors anyways.
By pigggg an hour ago
The entire problem is they aren't nearly as "very competitive" as would be politically convenient.
By fidotron an hour ago
Europe will just end up doing whatever is cheapest. It's the same story as always. They'll say some stuff publicly but they'll quietly come back to American tech once they see the price tag difference. They're very cost sensitive and their investors are extremely risk-averse.
By VWWHFSfQ 6 hours ago
> They're very cost sensitive and their investors are extremely risk-averse.
Being risk-averse unfortunately now means "avoid the USA".
By ben_w 2 hours ago
With US tech now in profit-squeezing mode rather than user-acquisition mode, the cost sensitivity might favor switching for things like SaaS.
By tgsovlerkhgsel 6 hours ago
Yep - just look at their oil/energy situation: they still buy it by the boatload from you know who, but just through 3rd parties.
By cpursley 5 hours ago
How was it a mistake? Europe got a lot of good telecom infrastructure for a low price. There's no evidence it was compromised.
It was actually the US that was pressuring Europe to get rid of Chinese telecom equipment, as part of the first Trump administration's broader strategy against China.
By DiogenesKynikos 2 hours ago
> It's the same reason you don't want Chinese equipment in your telecommunications infrastructure. You can't trust what the Chinese government will do to it or with it.
Using this logic, every country should develop its own critical equipment from scratch, in terms of both hardware and software.
My belief is that there is no problem with the Chinese equipment, just scare-mongering from the US because it has no manufacturer of 5G equipment. And Europe jumped on the bandwagon just because.
By ExoticPearTree 5 hours ago
For decades trusting the US was no problem at all. The relationship was mutually beneficial. Cooperation and trust among nations is possible and Juche (completely self-reliance) is not a worthwhile goal at all. So, sure, cooperation is great and should always be a goal – it also secures peace (people who are economically intertwined are less likely to go to war with each other).
The issue is the US burning up that earned mutual trust. And at some point you have to sadly abandon ship. Cooperation is great, trade is great, but not under all circumstances and all the time.
By arrrg 5 hours ago
Have you already forgot the Merkel Phone incident?
The issue has less to do with intelligence silliness, and more to do with the fact that the overall geopolitical objectives of the US can not be trusted, and that rift has grown to a point where self-reliance on critical infrastructure may be in Europe’s best interest.
By HolyLampshade 4 hours ago
That's a small blip on the timeline. If you want some serious, long running stuff, you should read Crypto AG scandal.
By bayindirh an hour ago
>> It's the same reason you don't want Chinese equipment in your telecommunications infrastructure. You can't trust what the Chinese government will do to it or with it.
> Using this logic, every country should develop its own critical equipment from scratch, in terms of both hardware and software.
The logic is don't use infrastructure of people you don't trust. If Europeans don't trust Chinese, then don't use Chinese infra; if the Europeans don't trust the US (anymore), then don't use US infra. The Europeans could trust the Canadians, and use Canadian infra for example.
By throw0101c 5 hours ago
> Europeans don't trust Chinese, then don't use Chinese infra; if the Europeans don't trust the US (anymore), then don't use US infra.
I'm seeing the EU being singled out as unreasonable for avoiding the risk represented by buying their whole infrastructure from companies with deep and blatant ties to CCP's armed forces.
Somehow these critics are omitting the fact that most of the world, specially asian countries, have also banned them.
Yes, there is a lot of affinity towards Canada in Europa, I feel. Last Bastion of Democracy on the North-American continent, and not part of the whacky Trump-Atlantian Hemisphere.
By rapnie 4 hours ago
Canada is as democratic as the UK…
By ExoticPearTree 3 hours ago
Without agreeing or disagreeing, I will note that GP specifically called out North America
By xethos an hour ago
China is decidedly anti democratic and authoritarian. They're also preparing for military activities to expand their territory.
It's not that each country needs to develop their own, but it is prudent to not depend on those who have a fundamentally different and incompatible world view.
By strangegecko 5 hours ago
> China is decidedly anti democratic and authoritarian
Let's also say that democracy is very important internally. But as a EU citizen (or even better as a middle east citizen) whether they're democratic or authoritarian makes very little difference to me- I don't get a say in what they do. And in the case of the ME, it wasn't China or its allies that reduced several countries to rubble, it was the democratic US.
> it is prudent to not depend on those who have a fundamentally different and incompatible world view
There are no such things as "incompatible world view" but certainly closer or more distant ones. And I think the fundamental values of the US are pretty far away from those of the EU.
By throw310822 3 hours ago
By definition democracy and authoritarianim/dictatorship are no compatible
By kelvinjps10 2 hours ago
I'm not sure I understand what it means to be "compatible". We are talking about different countries with different regimes of course: in what sense two countries are or aren't compatible?
By throw310822 2 hours ago
Only with a single nation.
Between nations, if that were so, no trade relationship would be possible between your go-to examples of each.
By ben_w 2 hours ago
> it is prudent to not depend on those who have a fundamentally different and incompatible world view.
Like Saudi Arabia and formerly the Saddam regime (when he sold oil in USD)?
While compatible world view is used as an argument against diplomatic and economic relations, in reality it’s just a bonus, not a requirement. What’s important is plain old cost benefit and national interests. The US is still a better ally for EU than China, but it’s gotten drastically worse fast. And while China has territorial ambitions, they are nowhere near EU. The US is the good old status quo ”devil you know”, but it’s abundantly evident now that nobody really knew them, including many of their own political elites domestically.
On diplomacy timescales, ignoring China because of human rights concerns is exceptionally short-sighted, both for EU if US continues current path, and for global stability in case conflicts escalate between China and US. There is no choice that guarantees EU will have a strong ”human rights” ally in 10 years.
By klabb3 4 hours ago
> just scare-mongering from the US because it has no manufacturer of 5G equipment.
Even if that were accurate, which it isn’t, what exactly do you think the US stands to gain by Europe buying 5g from someone other than China (like the European providers Ericsson and nokia)?
By tw04 5 hours ago
Control. The equipment made by Ericsson or Nokia uses US made components which can be used just like what the US accuses China of.
Secondly, it stops China gaining as much experience in this field as it could have.
By ExoticPearTree 3 hours ago
> Using this logic, every country should develop its own critical equipment from scratch, in terms of both hardware and software.
USA claims and treats Europe as the ennemy. Not every country treats every other country as the ennemy.
USA is, right now vicious and less trustworthy then China. Which is unfortunate cause China is not trustworthy.
By watwut 3 hours ago
We can see the same with everything in the US.
Huawei became very competitive to Apple. Outsold Apple in it's home market. Huawei got banned.
DJI has a near monopoly on drones. No US company could compete and players like GoPro shut down their consumer drone projects. DJI got/is about to get banned.
Tiktok was dangerous to Meta. TikTok got almost banned/forced-sold.
Chinese EVs are better than almost any US offering. Chinese EVs got banned (by 100%+ tarrifs on them).
Sale of AI and Chips to China got banned. No ChatGPT or Claude offered to us here in Hong Kong.
This is all the US Tech sector can do now. Short term this will go very well but long term this leads to the US falling behind and behind because American companies have artificially created barriers where they aren't forced to comepete anymore, meanwhile the world moves on and has a competitive environment. Innovation will move faster Ex-USA
I fly a DJI Mini 5 Pro, use a Huawei Freeclip 2 earphone, a Huawei GT6 watch, a Xiaomi Silicon Carbon powerbank, an Oppo Find N5 foldable. Most are better/unique compared to what you can even get in America. And that's only the beginning. That's only 2025.
By ulfw 5 hours ago
> Huawei became very competitive to Apple. Huawei got banned.
How would you explain Samsung, LG, Sony, etc.?
> DJI got banned.
Untrue.
Supply is constrained and future of new product availability is uncertain because of FY2025 National Defesnse Authorization ACt, which requires a security audit by late Dec 2025. If that doesn't happen, DJI could automatically be added to the FCC's restricted list, which could block new products from being certified and sold in the US.
Your argument is that US tech companies do not have the ability to compete, but this example doesn't support your claim; in fact it does the opposite.
But even so, your information is out of date. Nvidia is now allowed to sell its advanced H200 AI chips to China. The whiplash is dumb, but the move is aimed at maintaining US AI leadership, support American jobs, while addressing concerns about China's military AI development.
By andsoitis 5 hours ago
As a former Huawei phone owner, and a present Honor phone owner, Samsung LG and Sony does not hold a candle to the quality on offer from Honor and Huawei.
And this is coming from someone who has owned multiple Samsungs over the years.
By beAbU 4 hours ago
Huawei embeds ads in the stock apps. How can you have ads in a file manager app?
By is_true 3 hours ago
I agree generally that protectionism is bad, but the examples you present are just the US (finally!) doing to China what China has done to the world for decades. They rely on relatively unencumbered trade in Western markets, while locking their own markets up from outside competition.
By kelnos 4 hours ago
And yet you can buy a Tesla in China or an iPhone or any luxury bag or or or. Plenty of brands. It's not quite as black and white as people think.
What you're talking about is social networks/messengers/news which are limited not so much for competitive reasons but national security reasons. They like to control what people see which is something a Google, Meta or X cannot guarantee.
You can buy a Prada bag, a Ralph Lauren sweater, the newest iPhone or Mac, a Model Y, adidas or Nikes, Adobe Photoshop... etc etc
By ulfw 3 hours ago
> You can't trust what the Chinese government will do to it or with it.
It's not clear that europe even trusts europe anymore. Especially with french and german economic dominance looking shakier than ever, debt financing an unpopular war in the east piling up, mounting deficits, industry collapse, youth unemployment... european countries (or greenland for that matter) could do a whole lot worse than turning to china.
Agreed, though, that reliance on US is foolhardy. I can't make any sense of why we're trying to saw the feet off our own economy.
By MangoToupe 5 hours ago
Europe should be building domestic digital capacity regardless (and not just servers) but saying it needs to treat the US like China is a bit melodramatic given the economic and physical threat to Europe is 10X greater in the east.
The US is not anti-Europe. The US has just begun to start evaluating its relationship with Europe rationally and wants it to grow up beyond the post-WW2 training wheels.
The overreaction to this kind of gives vibes of slamming the door and screaming “you don’t love me!” because dad won’t buy a new toy.
By pembrook 6 hours ago
The difference is, Europeans used to trust their US partners, and built a lot of infrastructure on US services. This trust has been betrayed, so things now need to change.
It never existed to begin with with China, so no change is necessary.
That's not "melodramatic".
By Derbasti 6 hours ago
There never was a relationship of mutual trust, it was always a relationship of Europe being under the wing of the US as a buffer against the USSR.
The US now wants to push Europe out of the nest, but most Europeans have only ever known life "living in their parents house".
Building an independent Europe is not compatible with the current European ethos of work/life/life/life balance, and will likely result in Europe either coming back to the US, falling into economic chaos, or moving into daddy Xi's house. They are a socialist country after all...
By Workaccount2 2 hours ago
They control Europe's digital infrastructure and are able to increase rent to usurous levels (tarrifs!) because Europe is dependent on their digital services. Without digital sovereignty, Europe has no sovereignty and will quickly become a modern colony from which wealth will be extracted.
By jamesblonde 6 hours ago
The reason the US is able to raise rents (tariffs) has nothing to do with Europe buying US digital services.
The tariffs are on European exports. The problem is Europe has a weak domestic consumer market and is dependent on selling stuff to the US, not buying from them.
By pembrook 6 hours ago
The EU has a services deficit compared to the US, the US has a goods deficit compared to Europe. Together, they are almost in balance, the difference is just 3% of total trade [1]. Put differently, the US and the EU need each other. This is why Trump is using footguns.
Nonsense. Unilaterial tarrifs are not how trade agreements work. This is pure extractive rent.
The reason the US is not able to extract the same rents from China is that they have digital sovereignty and the US cannot just pull the cloud plug from them.
By jamesblonde 5 hours ago
> Nonsense. Unilaterial tarrifs are not how trade agreements work. This is pure extractive rent.
What do you mean by "unilateral tariffs"?
> The reason the US is not able to extract the same rents from China is that they have digital sovereignty and the US cannot just pull the cloud plug from them.
The US has higher tariffs against Chinese imports than European imports.
By andsoitis 5 hours ago
> The US is not anti-Europe.
Sure. They are not anti-Europe. They just announced that they want to topple democracy in our countries, destroy the European Union, want to annex a European territory and are best buddies with Vladimir Putin. But beside of that they are really good friends ... not!
By Lapel2742 6 hours ago
> want to annex a European territory
Greenland is not in europe. It may be a danish colony but that doesn't make it "european territory" any more than french guiana is. EU territory? Sure. But europe is a penninsula on the western flank of eurasia.
Its not a colony. Stop diminishing the agency of Greenlanders.
By tokai 20 minutes ago
Of course it's a colony; this is just an observable fact. This is true regardless of how Greenland polls. Agency is immaterial.
By MangoToupe 18 minutes ago
> Greenland is not in europe. It may be a danish colony but that doesn't make it "european territory" any more than french guiana is. EU territory? Sure. But europe is a penninsula on the western flank of eurasia.
You are right that Greenland is not in Europe (it sits on the Nort American tectonic plate).
It is also not an EU territory, however, it is linked to Europea through Denmark. European influence exists through governance, education, and trade.
Most Greenlanders identify primarily as Kalaallit (Inuit) and Greenlandic, not European.
By andsoitis 5 hours ago
And Hawaii is not in America. Certainly neither is Guam etc.
What kind of argument are you even trying to make?
By ulfw 5 hours ago
> And Hawaii is not in America. Certainly neither is Guam etc.
Sure, no argument here.
> What kind of argument are you even trying to make?
Mostly that characterizing Greenland as European is just as insane as characterizing French Guiana that way. Or the falknlands, New Caledonia, Polynesia, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Aruba, Curaçao, Anguilla, Bermuda, the Virgin Islands, etc etc. These are colonies—not part of europe, and should have been made whole decades ago with the resolution of WWII, and their continued presence as "rightfully" part of European nations destabilizes our globe.
Europe is welcome to extend its economic privileges to all nations of earth, and I for one will continue to argue for kicking us out of Hawaii and Guam while ensuring we don't further engage in predatory trade agreements.
Of course, I don't expect any of this predation to cease anytime soon.
By MangoToupe an hour ago
That the EU tries to keep hold on its colony and gets jealous when the US talks to Greenland citizens over the EU's head.
By drysine 4 hours ago
Well, to be fair, the EU in its current form needs to be killed with fire.
It was supposed to be something akin to United States of Europe, but instead in devolved into a bureaucracy that regulates the shit out if everything, is incredibly socialist and the EC thinks it is above everyone else.
By ExoticPearTree 5 hours ago
> It was supposed to be something akin to United States of Europe
No, it never was.
> but instead in devolved into a bureaucracy
No it hasn't:
"There are two striking aspects of this rejection of EU bureaucracy. First, in comparison with other, comparable entities, such as the US federal bureaucracy, the EU’s administrative apparatus has a marginal size. Specifically, the EU, which is responsible for more than 440 million citizens, employs only around 60,000 people, while the US federal bureaucracy has more than two million employees that govern a territory with about 330 million inhabitants. Accordingly, the EU bureaucracy is comparatively small and far from being the “bureaucratic monster” which it is frequently portrayed as."
I'm thankful for that. That is why our food is way better and way healthier than the shit the US makes it's citizens eat.
> is incredibly socialist and the EC thinks it is above everyone else.
LOL. No it's not "socialist" and the European Commission is the executive branch of the European Union. If you really think the Commission behaves as if they are above everything else (they do not!), I pull an American president.
By Lapel2742 5 hours ago
> There are two striking aspects of this rejection of EU bureaucracy. First, in comparison with other, comparable entities, such as the US federal bureaucracy, the EU’s administrative apparatus has a marginal size. Specifically, the EU, which is responsible for more than 440 million citizens, employs only around 60,000 people, while the US federal bureaucracy has more than two million employees that govern a territory with about 330 million inhabitants.
that's because the EU co-opted existing member state agencies instead of creating its own
e.g. the german federal department of agriculture effectively is controlled by the EU (almost all of its duties are an EU competence), but 100% of its costs are attributed to germany
this makes the EU look much more efficient than it is
By blibble 5 hours ago
> That is why our food is way better and way healthier than the shit the US makes it's citizens eat.
The US optimized for convenience, affordability, and variety.
You can eat very healthily in the US, but it requires more intentional choices.
In many (not all) EU countries, the default option is closer to healthy.
By andsoitis 5 hours ago
Socialist is a very weird term to use here. The eu is the epitome of neoliberalism, even more so than the us
By nephanth 5 hours ago
Tge EU is liberal just as much as I’m asian…
By ExoticPearTree 2 hours ago
They did not, this is all political ragebait journalism and memes.
By pembrook 6 hours ago
Disbanding the EU is an official goal of the new US security strategy.
By alphager 6 hours ago
It is not. I know the media has pushed this ragebait to get engagement from you, but you can literally read the official policy document.
By pembrook 5 hours ago
Divide and conquer is working well it seems.
There is no conspiracy, sorry.
By mlrtime 5 hours ago
The EU is not Europe. I never see any pro-EU sentiment anywhere besides on HN and Reddit. Talk to Europeans and they hate the EU and see it as an oppressive foreign power. Except for the Germans.
By carlosjobim 5 hours ago
The US literally wrote a national security strategy describing that it wants to dismantle the EU.
What do you mean it's not anti-Europe? It's literally trying to destroy our shared institutions!
By saubeidl 6 hours ago
> The US literally wrote a national security strategy describing that it wants to dismantle the EU.
The official 2025 NSS document does not explicitly state a US goal to dismantle the European Union.
The strategy is highly critical of the EU's direction and Europe's trajectory in ways that critics could say could indirectly undermine EU cohesion, but there's no formal language saying the US wants to dismantle the EU.
Critics interpret the tone and strategic shift as potentially indirectly weakening EU cohesion if taken as encouragement to nationalist or Eurosceptic political forces.
By andsoitis 5 hours ago
Heh there's two versions, the one with the spicier additions has not been officially published.
> Heh there's two versions, the one with the spicier additions has not been officially published.
I hear there's a third version.
By andsoitis 4 hours ago
This is all political ragebait and rumors, just like those claiming the US was going to pull out of NATO at the beginning of this administration.
Also, Europe is doing a fine job harming our shared institutions all on its own, we don’t need any help in that department.
By pembrook 6 hours ago
This article is about FAFO for MAGA loyalists in the USA. Well, MAGA has FA'd with US-European relations. Now they get to FO where it takes us (i.e. over the waterfall, isolating the USA from everything good in the world.)
By systemBuilder 5 hours ago
I doubt there's ever going to be an FO. What does Europe have of any value? What was the last thing of relevance they've done? Help with WWII?
By DaSHacka an hour ago
Project 2025 was just political rage bait and rumors too, until it wasn’t.
By LadyCailin 6 hours ago
It can be both. The document is massive, very contradictory and incoherent, and most of the people hysterical over it haven't even read it. Look I'm no fan of the trump administration but people should have concrete concerns, not waving around "project 2025" like some symbol of the country's imminent collapse. Unfortunately, our country is nowhere near collapse and this administration is not going to be the thing to bring it down. Though they're trying their hardest, i will admit.
If the #2 or #1 most popular political party in Germany are "literal Neonazis", I think Germany and likely Europe as a whole has a much bigger problem than whatever America is doing.
By Amezarak 5 hours ago
Yes, because the EU i stitutiins as they are now need to be razed from the face of the earth. Plain and simple.
The EU needs to be gone and try again something like this in a generation or two, with more emphasis on competition, development and creativity, rather than regulation and socialism.
By ExoticPearTree 5 hours ago
What socialism? What are you talking about?
The EU parliament has a conservative majority [0], as does the Council. [1]
It's a right-wing organization. I wish there was socialism, mate.
So this is why they give out subsidies left and right? Is this why they are working on increasing taxes?
Right now in politics you can claim to be whatever you want and your policy stance to be opposite: I am on the right but I vote left wing measures.
By ExoticPearTree 2 hours ago
The US leadership and billionaires are literally trying to destroy my country by supporting far right parties here. I never want to have anything to do with the US again at least until they sort their own crap out.
By i_am_a_peasant 2 hours ago
Is it actually anti-europe to ask europe to meet its NATO obligations?
By mathgradthrow 2 hours ago
Most of Europe does meet them. It is mainly a few countries like Spain which does not.
By jeltz 24 minutes ago
This is a non sequitur that has nothing to do with the comment or articles you're responding to.
By burkaman 2 hours ago
Literally this.
"The US is gonna have their FO moment aaaany day now, they're gonna regret messing with us Europeans!"
"Bro you haven't even kept your end of the deal on your NATO military spending."
Turns out despite all the hubub, the 'superpower' fading the fastest was Europe after all.
By DaSHacka an hour ago
Whataboutism.
The linked articles are not about NATO obligations.
By bogeholm 2 hours ago
Some people in the US deride it's close allies as "freeloaders" because they choose to use and buy US tech, reinforcing the US's position as a global powerhouse. (Meanwhile US tech is built on the shoulders of their allies.) Now we see these same allies are starting to look inward and invest in technology they own completely because the US is acting decisively not like an ally. Something unthinkable since WW2.
I don't see this news as anything but a good thing. For every technology out there, the EU needs a native alternative. It's clear the current US administration wants to make the EU worse based on a politics of grievance.
By flumpcakes 9 hours ago
I agree, this is a good thing. Long term stable large contracts are great simulation for a market. Airbus obviously has a large amount of military work, and its data needs to stay in Europe.
What we also need is a faster acceleration of military spending so this can happen with more companies.
By jimnotgym 8 hours ago
> thing. Long term stable large contracts are great simulation for a market.
They are not. It can hurt Airbus very much if a provider says they can provide a certain level of hardware/software for 10 years and in three years the RAM or storage goes through the roof and the provider is not big enough to absorb all the losses.
People don’t choose the hyperscalers because they are based in the US, they choose them because they are too big to fail and have pretty much unlimited resources and have multiplr streams of revenue.
By ExoticPearTree 5 hours ago
There's a futures market for RAM prices if you want to hedge that risk. No different than corn.
By everfrustrated 2 hours ago
I would expect a contract review for millions in hosting to review how the company will mitigate those costs. Normally you would expect them to contract away the risk themselves. In fact the current rise in RAM costs is due to exactly this, big hosters contracting for long term RAM certainty.
By jimnotgym 4 hours ago
Of course it's a good thing. It's an excellent thing. Is there any European company or individual arguing otherwise?
By bambax 7 hours ago
Country of Ukraine? Those suckers who bought F-35s or at least paid for them? And few other cases.
Long term, I agree with you.
By kakacik 7 hours ago
What's the problem with F-35s? Israel actively uses them and appears to be very happy. They provided them advantage no one platform could.
By anovikov 6 hours ago
The problem is about politic, not F35s capabilities: US is a strong ally of Israel but many don't feel the same in Europe.
By aziaziazi 3 hours ago
> Some people in the US deride it's close allies as "freeloaders" because they choose to use and buy US tech
This is a disingenuous straw man. The allies are derided for literally freeloading on US military protection while underinvesting in their own defense.
By unmole 8 hours ago
Freeloading?
My country spends less on defence as a percentage of GDP than the US. But it spends much of that with US companies. This is not Freeloading. It was a deal. Cancel TSR-2, and buy American and we will lend you some money. Cancel your nuclear program and buy US submarine launched missiles and we will help you look after yourself. Now let Visa and Mastercard skim off all your transactions and we will keep you secure to keep the money flowing. Sweetheart tax deals for US companies to operate, and we will keep you safe to keep the money flowing. It is not Freeloading, it is colonialism
By jimnotgym 7 hours ago
Agreed those things exist, in most contracts one or both parties feel they are not getting a 'fair' deal and will renegotiate terms, this is very common.
By mlrtime 5 hours ago
I can hear the whoosh going over the head of anyone associated with Trump. Thanks for trying though.
By LightBug1 6 hours ago
How's that? How many Middle Eastern refugees are America sheltering from the fallout of American aggression and the regimes it props up?
The US isn't anywhere close to paying its way.
By oliwarner 8 hours ago
The current U.S. President has insisted that Europeans are freeloading. Given that he’s been the primary proponent of this idea, and given that he’s been cutting off aid and has made cutting off this “freeloading” the central plank of his defense strategy, the U.S. defense budget must have gone down significantly right?
> The bill approves a record $901 billion in military spending for fiscal 2026
Oh…
By hshdhdhj4444 6 hours ago
Pray tell, how much of, say, the latest Afghanistan war did the US pay and how much do their allies need to bear? The rebuilding of a whole country, the reinstatement of the Taliban regime, the destabilization of the region, and the still ongoing stream of refugees? The political aftermath of which is still felt in Europe.
By xorcist 7 hours ago
> The political aftermath of which is still felt in Europe.
Nobody is forcing Europe to allow people without visas in. Building a eall and shooting on site anyone who crosses it is a very simple and effective method of keeping immigration in check.
But no, the EU seems hellbent on destroying itself by allowing all kinds of savages through its borders.
By ExoticPearTree 5 hours ago
Does the US plan to pay for this wall?
By jeltz 20 minutes ago
I'd argue the savages are the people shooting civilians.
By saubeidl 4 hours ago
The EU is so much more civilized by bribing Turkiye [0], Libya [1], Morocco, Mauritania, Tunisia [2], and other nations to shoot and/or indefinitely detain them for you guys instead.
Yet we as Americans are the savages.
European civil society needs to drop this charade of moralizing and being "rules based". The reality is EU policymakers are equally as mercurial and open to making deals with devils. The issue is a subset of you guys have a weird form of "white saviourship" and sense of exceptionalism.
Finally, a plurality of us Americans either never had or no longer have blood ties with Europe. As an Asian American who used to work om the Hill, I myself and my peers increasingly ignore or overlook Europe despite having went to college with a number of your up-and-coming decisionmakers. In 2025, the majority of us Americans are Latino, Black, Mixed, Asian, or multi-generational White American.
Any positive historical ties we had with Europe (in reality, a fluke from 1939-2011) was because of 1.5 gen Central and Eastern European immigrants turned NatSec Advisers like Kissinger (German), Albright (Czech), and Brzezinski (Polish). From a soft power perspective, when we don't look inward we increasingly look to Latin America or Asia. And economically as well - our total trade with all of Europe is barely $975B compared to $1.5T with all of the Americas and around $2-2.5T with Asia.
> Building a wall and shooting on site anyone who crosses it is a very simple and effective method of keeping immigration in check.
Ah yes a wall, like that famously effective one that Trump built. Tell me has US managed to actually finish it yet?
By avianlyric an hour ago
Europe could have simply denied entry to the refugees and avoided their entire refugee problem. It's especially silly to blame the US when most EU states strongly supported the downfall of Qaddafi and Assad.
By Amezarak 5 hours ago
> The allies are derided for literally freeloading on US military protection while underinvesting in their own defense.
1. No one forced the US to spend a bajillion dollars on defense.
2. The US did so out of their own free will, and out of self-interest: their power hegemony allowed for peaceful trade routes that benefited the US economy and US corporations.
3. Their own defense against what? What threats, until fairly recently, did the Europeans face that they needed to spend money protecting against?
By throw0101c 5 hours ago
Let's not pretend this was something the US didn't want for most of the last seventy years.
By tonyedgecombe 7 hours ago
Guess which country had never any interest in a strong (politically and militarily) Europe, to maintain the world hegemony?
A Europe with an independent defense is dangerous competition for the US. Maybe it means that some international trade will be done in Euro. Maybe it means foreign policies in Europe's interests.
By Wilder7977 5 hours ago
It seems every single comment in the thread is understanding "cloud" here to mean AWS vs Hetzner. But it's clear from the first paragraph of the article that what they actually mean is MS 365 Dynamics vs SAP. They primarily want a managed ERP + CRM solution, not servers.
By esperent 7 hours ago
Cloud must be the most uselessly overloaded term ever. I have no way of knowing what you are actually talking about when you use it.
By Sammi 7 hours ago
In there early days of cloud there were actual definitions created for it. Nobody seems to remember or care any more.
By everfrustrated 2 hours ago
Cloud always means "somebody else's computer".
By apelapan 6 hours ago
Even that isn't generic and broad enough. I've noticed so many people mean SaaS when they say cloud. That isn't even a hardware or server or infrastructure meaning. It's referring to a whole cohesive IT product that you subscribe to.
Actually I'd say "cloud" says more about the business model than it says about the actual product.
By Sammi 4 hours ago
If only. But it can also mean your own computers ("private cloud").
By fulafel 4 hours ago
I will be servers as well. Eurostack cloud providers. We are involved in one of these - a large car company doing the same.
By jamesblonde 6 hours ago
As far as I know SAP is more capable and widespread, so I don’t know why they were using Microsoft in the first place.
By itopaloglu83 6 hours ago
SAP needs servers though, if they buy SAP hosted in AWS that kind of defeats the purpose.
By TrickyRick 6 hours ago
Indeed. And SAP has no cooperation with any European cloud providers, afaik. It's the big three plus alibaba. SAP wants to move away from on-prem, but I guess it has a solution for critical applications. Maybe that can be shoehorned onto OVH or something.
By tormeh 5 hours ago
Much of what people call cloud is a commodity at this point. If you need vms, object storage, load balancers, vpcs, etc., which is what most people would need, that works in a lot of solutions. And you can usually also find managed databases, redis, and a few other bits and bobs. If you like Kubernetes (I personally don't), the whole point of that is that it kind of works everywhere.
People over pay for AWS mostly because of brand recognition. And it's not even small amounts. You get a lot more CPU/memory/bandwidth with some of the competitors. AWS makes money by squeezing their customers hard on that. Competitors do the obvious thing of being a bit more generous. Companies could save a ton just switching to competing solutions. Try it. It's not that hard. Some solutions are obviously not as complete.
This not about US vs. EU but about sovereignty. If you are married to AWS, that's a weakness in itself. Ask yourself how hard it would be to move to Google cloud. Or Azure. Or whatever. If that's very hard, you might have a problem when Amazon jacks up the prices or discontinues a product.
We use a mix of Google Cloud and Telekom Cloud for some of our more picky customers in Germany. Telekom Cloud is not very glamorous. But it's essentially openstack. Which is an open source thing backed by IBM and others. I wouldn't necessary recommend Telekom Cloud (it has a few weaknesses in support and documentation). But it does the job. And unlike AWS, I can get people on the phone and they are happy to talk to me.
By jillesvangurp 8 hours ago
> If you are married to AWS, that's a weakness in itself
I have tried Lambdas and then got this "oh-shit moment" when I have realized that if AWS would be to kick me out, I would be absolutely screwed.
Now I am slowly dispersing and using VMs instead and avoiding all the AWS-specific stuff as much as I can.
By general1465 7 hours ago
Most cloud providers have a similar offering to AWS Lambda, plus it is not that hard to convert your code from the event handling pattern impose by AWS Lambda to a long running container running in K8s or VMs like you are doing yourself
IMO the lock-in fear is overblown as the top cloud offerings (S3, Lambdas, K8s as a service etc) are already commoditized among the top providers, the exception being specialized databases like DynamoDB, Spanner, Cosmos …
Not saying there wouldn’t be some major work to switch your operations from eg AWS to GCP, but it is also not a hard lock-in
By reese_john 7 hours ago
Most cloud providers have the same exact issue that AWS has: they're US based.
By jacquesm 7 hours ago
Not Hetzner tho
By keepamovin 5 hours ago
I hesitate to call Hetzner "cloud". Hetzner is an EC2+S3 competitor, not an AWS one. IMO the minimum for being a real cloud is you need hosted Postgres, hosted Kafka, hosted Kubernetes, and S3-compatible object storage. Without the first three Hetzner is just not in the same product category. Nobody sensible buys AWS for the comically overpriced EC2.
By tormeh 4 hours ago
It is amazing how quick a country can turn into a corrupt dictatorship.
Airbus has the ability to move their data to another location, but it is very problemetic that all people with a social account can't. Sure, you can delete your Facebook account but it will take years for you profile to be gone because we all know your data is sold to other parties.
My only option is to keep in mind that everything I put online will one day be read by some evil entity. Even my IP address that Hacker News might store (I don't know, but servers log stuff).
By thdrtol 6 hours ago
> It is amazing how quick a country can turn into a corrupt dictatorship.
I know, watching the fall of the UK and European countries has been really depressing to see. It's unfortunate, but it seems the US will have to carry the torch alone going into the mid-to-late 21st century.
By DaSHacka an hour ago
At least we agree that a country turning into a corrupt dictatorship is depressing to see.
By thdrtol an hour ago
I really hope regulators don't back down on this.
Half a billion people shouldn't be reliant on whether a guy with clown makeup is having a dementia moment.
Key infra (gov, utilities, news etc) has to be in house or at least in a EU country. Actually in house not big tech EU "sovereign" cloud wink wink nudge
By Havoc 5 hours ago
> Key infra (gov, utilities, news etc) has to be in house or at least in a EU country.
For some EU functionalities there is eu-lisa which develops and hosts services - mostly for police, immigration, biometrics and a slew of others.
The problem is that they are very closed environments with a lot if bureaucracy involved and the development is done at snail pace.
By ExoticPearTree 3 hours ago
> The problem is that they are very closed environments with a lot if bureaucracy involved and the development is done at snail pace.
Wow, so they're authentically European! Glad to see they're off to a great start.
By DaSHacka an hour ago
Good, and them get ride of Palantir as a "data manager".
It's a step in financing EU sovereign cloud providers.
By _ache_ 9 hours ago
> Good, and them get ride of Palantir as a "data manager".
And how do we fight terrorists, CSAM and political opponents without Palantir ?
By hulitu 8 hours ago
Your comment may be sarcastic, IDK; but if it is I concur.
Fighting "CSAM" is absurd and ridiculous, and used as a justification for eroding public liberties. So is the fight against "terrorism".
The US government has decided to kill innocent fishermen en masse and labelled its victims "narco-terrorists" as a justification for these crimes.
We absolutely do not need Palantir.
By bambax 7 hours ago
> Fighting "CSAM" is absurd and ridiculous, and used as a justification for eroding public liberties. So is the fight against "terrorism".
Labelling like this works both ways you know.
By dzhiurgis 7 hours ago
Seems extremely dangerous to be doing those kinds of things with software from someone politically hostile. Perhaps the EU should be weaning itself off that too?
By t43562 8 hours ago
> And how do we fight terrorists, CSAM and political opponents without Palantir ?
You can make exactly same argument for client (phone) scanning and depreciation of encryption.
By general1465 7 hours ago
Please add a /s we can't afford sarcasm in this climate anymore
By j_maffe 6 hours ago
The sarcasm is too damn high!
By pyrale 2 hours ago
I don't think Airbus is fighting terrorists, child abuse or political opponents.
So what is your point ?
Airbus is fighting industrial espionage.
By _ache_ 8 hours ago
Missed the sarcasm. But FWIW, all three are legitimate threat actors for a strategic airplane manufacturer.
By TeMPOraL 8 hours ago
I don't see how child abuse content is a risk for a airplane manufacturer but that is not how Palentir is used at Airbus.
> And how do we fight terrorists, CSAM and political opponents without Palantir ?
By doing police legwork and by prevention work (i.e. offer help to pedophiles, don't go and wreck MENA countries for funsies, but invest in helping the civilian populations).
By mschuster91 7 hours ago
> estimates only an 80/20 chance of finding a suitable provider
It would be nice to know what the requirements are.
There are plenty of providers in the EU happy to sell cloud services
By wrxd 7 hours ago
They should read HN.
Don’t they know you can get Hetzner servers starting from $5/month?
By mft_ 7 hours ago
Lmao but in all honesty, there are a lot of european cloud providers that I know and they are even cheaper than american counterparts like aws, azure, gcp. Personally I like european cloud too but I dont have so much as an preference and it depends but the current environment of america does seem a little hostile but not the fault of datacenters in america but I hope that hostility slows down
By Imustaskforhelp 7 hours ago
There are a lot of European “cloud” providers, but there’s not one that offers anything even close to AWS/GCP/Cloudflare. If you need more than compute and S3, you’re pretty much SOL.
By AndroTux 7 hours ago
But would you need those functions to run your ERP and CRM systems (see the article)?
By generic92034 3 minutes ago
OVH?
Upcloud?
Scaleway?
(searching more I found Koyeb, bunny cdn offers deno similar to cloudflare workers)
By Imustaskforhelp 7 hours ago
If you need much more than compute, managed k8s and blob storage, then you're architecting yourself for a vendor lock-in.
By antonkochubey 7 hours ago
Absolutely not. There's a gazillion cloud providers out there with hosted postgres+kafka+redis and the other big open source softwares. Hetzner is just not one of them.
By tormeh 4 hours ago
So which one, scale way, hetzner... Tell us who wins ?
By scirob an hour ago
And not just Airbus. Very quietly there is a lot of stuff being moved out of the US and away from MS, AWS, Google etc. Trump has absolutely no idea what he's doing and comes across as the proverbial bull in a China shop.
History books a hundred years hence will have some choice things to say about how we all stood by and let this happen.
By jacquesm 7 hours ago
Any concrete evidence of any of that outside of a few companies "exploring" the move? For most companies it's a non-starter
By nxm 6 hours ago
Well, they really, really, really want it to be true, so surely that means it practically is.
By DaSHacka an hour ago
In case any SME-sized companies here are wanting to do something similar but are looking askance at the risk/investment/hiring required, then we'd [0] love to talk to you.
We specialise in doing this but on a smaller scale. Eg. 10-100 person companies that have 0-to-a-few DevOps engineers. Included is DevOps time each month to use as you wish, we're on call for SLAs, around 50% reduced cost vs AWS/Google/Azure, etc.
Somewhat differently to most, we deploy onto bare metal. In addition to dropping costs we typically see at least a 2x speed-up overall. Once client just reported a 80% reduction in processing time.
CTOs like us because we're always on-hand via Slack (plus we're the ones getting woken up in the night), and CFOs like us because billing becomes consistent.
I wonder if this includes Skywise, the Palantir-built data lake and design stack that they use for many many internal operations (design, airline support, manufacturing). Not sure what difference it really makes where the data is hosted if the folks doing the hosting call home to Colorado…
By Doches 8 hours ago
From what I've seen of Skywise, it is just a glorified SharePoint. Different systems upload CSV files that get turned into database tables. Then you can define views across these tables that other systems can consume by having them dumped to CSV and dropped on an SFTP.
Performance is not great, so you need middleware and batching anyway. As far as I am concerned, it wouldn't be a great loss if Skywise disappeared and just the SFTP with CSV:s remained.
By apelapan 5 hours ago
I'm sure there are 10 other things nearly as bad. No reason not to start the journey.
By Zigurd 6 hours ago
Given it was revealed that CIA specifically targeted 200million deals and above, it was political naivety amounting ti gross negligence on behalf of Airbus executives that it took them 10 years. Same for many other large organisations and countries, unbelieveable.
Why did it have to be Trump to make them take action?
I do not understand what this is supposed to be about.
What is this "Euro Cloud" and what does it have to do with "ERP, manufacturing execution systems, CRM, and product lifecycle management (aircraft designs)"?
For example I am not aware that Microsoft, Amazon or Google offer any PLM services. The companies offering those would be Siemens, Dassault and so on. Is the issue that those PLM providers are themselves running on Microsoft, Amazon or Google Services? But then the issue is with Airbus needing to force their suppliers into changing where there services are delivered from, but AFAIK these PLM providers offer on prem services, so it seems like a relatively trivial issue.
What exactly is the "Euro Cloud" supposed to mean here, what is the actual issue with Airbus switching their PLM to on prem? TO be honest I find it hard to imagine that this isn't already the case. So what is going on here?
By constantcrying an hour ago
> estimates only an 80/20 chance of finding a suitable provider
I must be terribly fussy but this genuinely tripped me up while reading. What does this phrasing even mean? Is it an 80% chance of success? This seems like someone has heard the phrase "80/20 rule" and applied it somewhere it makes no sense.
By crabmusket 6 hours ago
He is my free advise for Airbus:
1/ First migrate out your "17 years Accenture veteran" executive vice president of digital [0] (who probably sold you MS and Google cloud in the first place)
2/ Then appoint any inside good engineer and ask him to investigate this: "As one of the most prominent and sensitive aerospace corporation, do you think we can setup servers and run our software on it?"
If the answer is no, Airbus might not be fit for the 21th century.
do you really suppose replicating the technical requirements of a security-sensitive company of this size in-house would be so easy? I've been doing infrastructure for 25 years and wouldn't want anywhere near this project. but what you will no doubt find is a pool of overconfident volunteers creating exactly the kind of risk outsourcing the problem allowed them to avoid in the first place
By g-mork 7 hours ago
The way I understand it is today is when I board on an Airbus I enter an hybrid of a mechanical and digital machine.
I understand there is a lot of complex and sensitive software embedded/hosted on that plane that hopefully are not gonna kill me.
So computers are actually core to their business. They probably almost invented things like PLM too.
Nothing Airbus does is easy, this is why there are only about 2 companies like that in the world. This is why I do not see why their hosting have to be outsourced...
By sunshine-o 6 hours ago
Sovereign from the EU regime?
By 7492632928 2 hours ago
"sovereign Euro cloud", ah good chuckle
By eurekin 6 hours ago
Good, but how independent of US service providers is S/4HANA in practice?
By PeterStuer 8 hours ago
Weird.
If it matters so much, run your own computer systems don’t use any cloud.
By andrewstuart 7 hours ago
Sounds like they're adopting EU cloud but will continue to use Google Suite. Surely there are viable EU based alternatives further up the stack?
By tjpnz 7 hours ago
This administration has done more to undermine US power than probably any in history. This isn't a new statement either (eg [1]). Personally, I think that's not such a bad thing because we are the bad guys. I know people get all in their feelings when you say stuff like that but the number of democratically elected governments we've overthrown, just to get their resources, is indefensible.
This week it broke that China is pretty far along in duplicating EUV litthography. The US restricts ASML, a Dutch company, from exporting their best machines to China and Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese companies from exporting their chips to China. The second one was a massive mistake. Why? Because it created a marekt for China to produce chips because they had no other choice.
Geopolitically I think this is very similar to the USSR copying the atomic bomb in just 4 years after WW2 where US leaders either thought it was impossible or would take 20+ years.
The US has become unpredictable and unreliable. Ukraine is a big part of this because Europe is waking up to them having to be responsible for their own defense and that ultimately will undermine US power projection through NATO.
Since very early in this administration, probably back when the tariff nonsense began, I believed that Europe would be forced to distance themselves from US tech giants and at some point the EU would require cloud storage to be within EU borders and eventually require European companies to own and run that cloud rather than US companies.
China has their own version of virtually every tech company. I can see the EU moving in this direction for key functions and cloud is likely the first of those.
What's really precarious is the entire US economy is now essentially a bet on US companies owning a global AI future and I honestly don't think it's going to happen, mainly because China won't let it happen. DeepSeek was a shot across the bow for this and only the beginning.
What you really need to remember about the current administration is we're not even 1 year into a 4 year term with everything that's happened and the entire foreign policy is kleptocratic not strategic in nature.
Airbus is putting all its design on internet? wow...
By sylware 8 hours ago
You can have the data safely on-prem, connected to computers that are connected to the internet, or safely in the cloud, connected to computers that are connected to the internet. The threats are not that different.
By FabHK 7 hours ago
Managing product data on the cloud does not mean public internet access, unless someone messes something up big time.
By pestaa 8 hours ago
> Airbus is putting all its design on internet? wow...
Not only Airbus. You see, cloud is secure, information is encrypted and only you have access to your data.
By hulitu 8 hours ago
It would be reasonably "secure" if it is encrypted on a physically private network using in-house _modified_ _mainstream_ encryption algorithm, then after an over-the-air transfer then you can store it on a third party could under the control of foreign interests. Oh, don't forget the file names have to be encrypted too.
Why would a company without cryptographic expertise modifying an existing algorithm without any particular goal in mind just to be different, produce something more secure than the winning solution in an open cryptographic competition?
> directory names
And file structure too, preferably. Incremental sync could be done with XTS mode.
By pona-a 7 hours ago
You need only cryptographic common sense: it seems you have no idea how much it is easy to modify a mainstream cryptographic software to add basic and robust cryptographic modifications...
Are you an AI?
By sylware 7 hours ago
>You need only cryptographic common sense
Sounds like the "I know a guy" kind of thing that shouldn't be done if you really care about security.
>Are you an AI?
Non-sequitur.
By jamesnorden 6 hours ago
You'd be fooling yourself if you think any moderately complex company still hasn't moved to the cloud or isn't thinking about it (with rare exceptions)
By raverbashing 8 hours ago
Yeah, not really sure how a globally distributed manufacturing operation with a complex supply chain and customers all over the world that need access to data for their operations is supposed to function effectively without it.
(and I say that as someone that used to sell commercial aviation data that came on CDs...)
By notahacker 8 hours ago
I don't think this is related to that "critical" stuff.
It seems there is a misunderstanding over the classification of 'critical' stuff.
We may all have a very different definition.
All I know: the second your are connected to internet, you are cooked.
By sylware 7 hours ago
I'm not sure what the 'critical' stuff is either or what the details of Airbus' network hosting and knowledge compartmentalization strategy is, but you're not going to run a globally distributed manufacturing business with complex supply and maintenance requirements without having technical specs, CAD files, diagnostic criteria customer records etc sitting on computers connected to the internet.
By notahacker 5 hours ago
Having worked with all major European clouds: Good luck, have fun opening a lot of support cases for things that should work ootb.
By jasonvorhe 8 hours ago
Did you ever do it while waiving a $50m cheque though?
By jimnotgym 8 hours ago
$50mm does mot get go very far. We’re a pretty small company (200 people) compared to Airbus and pay about $2mm/yr for cloud.
By ExoticPearTree 3 hours ago
I do, works perfectly if you know what you're doing. If you have no clue, jump to AWS and enjoy the lockin, if you do, jump to a EU provider, and enjoy not being locked in, and a vastly lower cost.
By abc123abc123 7 hours ago
"if you know what you're doing"
lol my team has worked with every major cloud provider for a decade, but sure it's all our fault because incompetence.
good luck man.
edit: I never even implied that AWS lock-in something positive. I'm getting paid to move companies from cloud to on-prem because that's true sovereignty.
By jasonvorhe 5 hours ago
Great - an anecdote. Most company leaders just want to focus on their core business on top of proven tech that works.
By nxm 5 hours ago
One of the reason is a lot of those "EU Sovereign Clouds" were malicious cash grabs.
It happened several times in the last decade:
- First politicians raise the alarm about "digital sovereignty"
- Then some create new EU sovereign clouds that are pitched/forced on corporations
- They usually do not work, get consolidated and then the scam is revealed
The biggest reveal was when we discovered and warned one of our client the Orange "Sovereign Cloud" (French telco partially owned by the government !) and built to host European most sensitive worloads was just handed over and run by Huawei [0] [1].
They were not the only one who did something like that.
I don't want to put actors like Hertzner in the same bag as they seem to be honest and really compete to offer a cheaper alternative to hyperscalers.
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